A Dress A Day

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Mostly every day.

January 08, 2008

The Mystery in the Cathedral

mystery in the Cathedral

Do you know what's going on in this picture? John sent it to me to ask if I could help him date the dress the woman is wearing (looks pretty early-1930s to me, or else set WAY in the Art Deco Future), but I'm so intrigued by everything going on in this photo (the box! the altar! the little-girl pages with swords! the priest!) that I asked him if I could post it and set y'all loose on the problem.

This is what John knows:

The photo was taken in the Cathedral in Fort Wayne, Indiana. The man is Msgr. Thomas M. Conroy, which dates the photo anywhere from 1921 to when the altar was changed about 1933 or so. No idea who the lady is, or what on earth they are doing, let alone in that gorgeous apparel. [ETA: the lady's name may or may not be Rosemary NEDILASEN or NEUBAUER.]


The photo above is pretty small; if you want to download a REALLY BIG one, that you can enlarge to see the detail on the box (a reliquary? an offering of some sort? a time machine?) you can grab it here. [UPDATED: here's a closeup of just the box.

My first thought was perhaps the woman was taking vows of some kind (to become a nun, or to join the Space Vestals -- I'm sorry, I can't pull myself away from that Art Deco Future) but John thinks that novices usually didn't wear so much makeup. Or so much velvet.

What do you think is going on? If you KNOW, that's wonderful, but in the meantime, idle speculation is encouraged.

Labels: , ,

posted by Erin @ 8:50 AM  

126 Comments:

  • At Jan 8, 2008 9:02:00 AM, Blogger Rachel said…

    No idea what they're up to, but I WILL tell you that I'm a costume designer and I set a show this year in the Art Deco Future (I was calling it "Back to the Deco Future" for a while). Metropolis? Aelita, Queen of Mars? There is not much that is cooler than the Art Deco Future!

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 9:08:00 AM, Blogger lissla lissar said…

    Don't know what they're doing, either, but her outfit looks like shots of early 30's Vionnet gowns. I'd date it 1930 or thereabout.

    Huh. The box thingy could be a reliquary (sp?). Maybe.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 9:15:00 AM, Blogger Katie Alender said…

    They look too happy to be at a funeral...

    I wonder if it's an adult First Communion or Confirmation.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 9:19:00 AM, Anonymous Lingerie McFilibuster said…

    I'm not sure what the occasion is, but don't the little girls look happy? Usually in posed pictures in churches, small people appear so stiff and well, posed. I especially love this girl to our left of the glorious velvet-clad woman. Doesn't she look like she has just popped in on her way to have tea with the Mad Hatter from Alice in Wonderland?

    I find it is odd that the diminutive damsels are wearing shortpants in a church in the early 30's.

    As much as I wish they were holding swords (I think we should arm all six year olds), I think they are just canes. But let me tell you, that insane girl looks like she might start whacking away. That's why they didn't give her one.

    If I may ask: Is this a scanned photo or negative?

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 9:31:00 AM, Anonymous Abby said…

    This is clearly a photo of Mrs. Coulter presenting an alethiometer to the Magisterium.

    (Disclaimer: I've been listening to The Golden Comapss and sequels on tape on some really long car rides lately, and that may color my perception of reality a bit.)

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 9:45:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I am intrigued by the mary janes on the girls. unless mj's were done different way back when...all of them are the same style with the strap buckle in the center which indicates that this is not a thrown together costume for a one time occasion??? The lady's gown is sumptuous and if it is a costume it appears to be made just for her. It fits too well to be a church piece used for others??? Knights of Columbus wannabes?? Red Riding Hood, her fan club and wolf ashes???

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 9:56:00 AM, Blogger the_sewist said…

    It's possible that the lady in the gown, the priest and the girls in knickers are marking a feast day for a saint.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 9:58:00 AM, Blogger Ria said…

    WOW! I am so very interested in this. I have to know.

    I love the Mrs. Coulter explanation. We just watched Golden Compass this weekend so I am probably swayed a tad as well.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 10:02:00 AM, Anonymous Rebecca said…

    This reminds me of photographs of a simliar era from old year books from my alma mater, a small midwestern college not far from Fort Wayne.

    In the year books there are all kinds of Queen of May, Festival of the Falling Leaves kind of dress-up extravaganzas. I would bet serious money that this is some sort of theatrical thing, not a serious religious observance.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 10:03:00 AM, Blogger Tracy said…

    I'm wondering if it isn't a May Queen crowning. They use to be elaborate affairs.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 10:09:00 AM, Blogger Giusi said…

    Until Catholic came up, I thought Aimee Semple Macpherson.

    The whole thing is very 1933 circa. Remember, what was in Paris one year was not usually in Fort Wayne immediately. The page boys make it look like a wedding. The box? That's her secret forever.

    Judith in Umbria

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 10:10:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The box the woman is holding is undoubtedly a reliquary. It could contain anything from the remains of a saint to a consecrated host to be taken to the sick. But my guess it that it is the former.

    It is possible that this is a picture taken in connection with the lady's presentation of a newly-recovered relic to the Church. One wonders if the church in question has such a reliquary in its posession now?

    Another possibility: Many years ago I read the biography of Sister Pascalina (Pope Pius XII's personal secretary, he became pope in 1939), in it she mentions American women who had made large financial donations to the church being created "nobility" of the Vatican and given noble titles. It is possible that something like that is going on in connection with the woman in the picture.

    Well, that's my guess.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 10:23:00 AM, Blogger Polly said…

    My take is similar. That's a reliquary - perhaps a new piece that she has donated. I think those are little boys, not girls. A RC church in those days wouldn't have had girls up by the altar.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 10:27:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    In the really big photo, I can see what appears to be a circular opening on the top of the box-like thing she is holding. Her hands seem to be on a smaller pedestal underneath.

    My guess is that she is presenting a chalice to the church, an art piece, possibly antique, European, medieval(?), a family heirloom, perhaps. As a chalice the object doesn’t look especially practical (could anyone actually drink from this chalice?), which makes me think it’s more of an art piece.

    Why such a presentation requires a group of fancy-dressed pages, I don't know, but I'm curious.

    CMC

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 10:31:00 AM, Blogger Ladygrande said…

    I wish this picture was in color! The lovely lady's dress could be red (garnet), maroon, green, purple, navy...... The pages costumes could be any light color. Inquiring mind wants to know.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 10:44:00 AM, Anonymous John said…

    Hi, this is John who sent in the photo. If you take a very close look at the faces of the pages, they are clearly girls. You'll notice the two in the rear have no canes, presumably they are train-bearers.

    The box is almost certainly a reliquary; a google-image search of the word will show that this is a typical form of a medieval reliquary. I speculate that the medallion hanging from a chain, coming out of the box, contains the actual relic, which would usually be stored in the box. That is not an opening on the top, rather it is an oval, with a fleur de lis design, and the design of the flower is that of the arms of Florence, Italy.

    One thing that bothers (intrigues) me is that the priest (a Monsignor) does not appear to be dressed in a manner to 'match' the pagentry going on around him, unless he has removed his liturgical vestments, and is posing for photos after the event?

    I was pleasantly surprised to see 14 comments already so soon after posting.

    I'm off to look up Vionnet!

    I greatly appreciate all your comments, and look forward to reading more.

    John

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 10:58:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    John, can you post a more detailed scan of the reliquary and pendant? They may offer some clue.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 11:08:00 AM, Anonymous kim p. said…

    Is/was there a school connected with this cathedral? If so, could be a photo op connected with a school play or pageant--thus the informal dress of the priest, and the presence of girls. Though the outfits seem too posh for that, perhaps. Was this a very wealthy parish? Sorry--more questions than answers, but my curiosity has been piqued!

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 11:08:00 AM, Blogger Univega Amy said…

    Could we have confirmation that this is indeed a Roman Catholic Church? The Episcopalian Church has many similarities to the RC Church....then there's the Eastern Orthodox churches....

    I think that the pages are little girls. I don't think little boys usually wear Mary Janes.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 11:09:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Univerga Amy: since the priest and the altar are known, I think it can be safe to assume that it is a Catholic church!

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 11:21:00 AM, Blogger Univega Amy said…

    Eastern Orthodox churches have both priests and altars. I believe Episcopalians ALSO have priests and altars (though I'm not certain). That is why I asked.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 11:25:00 AM, Anonymous Nancy said…

    what about a second marriage (if in a Catholic Church, the marriage of a widow, naturally)? This is a photo of her and her attendants (perhaps the miraculous sextuplets she had with her first husband). obviously she wouldn't wear white (heaven forfend), so she chose a beautiful indigo velvet with a long train, and prior to the ceremony was photographed with a memento mori in deference to her first husband's very wealthy family.

    ok, probably not what John is looking for (I hope someone solves the mystery for real!), but great fun to speculate about.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 11:25:00 AM, Anonymous Nancy said…

    what about a second marriage (if in a Catholic Church, the marriage of a widow, naturally)? This is a photo of her and her attendants (perhaps the miraculous sextuplets she had with her first husband). obviously she wouldn't wear white (heaven forfend), so she chose a beautiful indigo velvet with a long train, and prior to the ceremony was photographed with a memento mori in deference to her first husband's very wealthy family.

    ok, probably not what John is looking for (I hope someone solves the mystery for real!), but great fun to speculate about.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 11:36:00 AM, Blogger Helen said…

    She sure is working that train and the ruched velvet at the sleeves.

    I thought second marriage at first, too. Looking at the big photo, you can see the children's costumes are purely costumes (elastic waist, faux buttons).

    As for the reliquary, if the priest wasn't there, it would look a lot more like a jewelry box with a pendant hanging down.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 11:40:00 AM, Anonymous Jody said…

    I have no idea what's going on, but it really reminds me of that scene from Evita where she meets the Pope. Sweet!

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 11:42:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I'm guessing from the level of coordination with the girls' costumes that this is some sort of women's organization affiliated with the parish--maybe a female Knights of Columbus sort of thing? That might help explain the pageboy suits. Looks like a ceremonial occasion where a representative of the organization makes a ceremonial presentation to the church--maybe even an annual event? The voluminous cape and the fancy gloves are really the big deal; otherwise she just has a long, dark skirt and a white satin blouse, certainly in the style of the time but not especially haute couture. A fancy cloak with matching gloves would lend itself to reuse by a variety of ladies, as long as they wore something suitable sober and generic underneath.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 11:44:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Ah! I clicked on the Big Picture and I can see the reliquary details now.

    A little Googling and some good guesses (those many years of Catholic indoctrination and education do come in handy from time to time) led me to the Fort Wayne, Indiana Cathedral (Cathedral of The Immaculate Conception , 1122 S. Clinton St., PO Box 10898, Fort Wayne, IN 46854, Phone: (260) 424-1485 Fax: (260) 424-7625). Details: Catholic parishes are defined by geographic boundaries. A bunch of parishes are grouped into a geographic “district” called a diocese. Each diocese has a cathedral.

    There is a Cathedral Museum, containing, and I quote: “Religious artifacts dating back to the mid-13th century.”

    http://www.diocesefwsb.org/museum/

    I’ll bet this artifact is in that museum today. And, one can only hope, some recorded facts about the reliquary and it’s presentation to the cathedral???

    CMC

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 11:49:00 AM, Blogger Earth Girl said…

    I'm from Fort Wayne and know that the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception has a museum. Perhaps they could answer the questions.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 11:50:00 AM, Blogger S. said…

    I'm wondering if it doesn't have to do with the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, which is what Google tells me is the name of the Cathedral in Fort Wayne. Also, pure white is the colour associated with this feast, which would explain the pages' costumes, and it's on Dec. 8, which would make the velvet cape seasonally appropriate. Yet most of the Google results I've found for that feast mention ceremonies involving advent candles, none of which are present in that picture.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 12:10:00 PM, Blogger Mimi said…

    My first thought was First Communion, but I've never seen everyone dressed the same like that. Maybe it is a play about a Saint?

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 12:14:00 PM, Anonymous WonderSheep said…

    I have no idea. What I do have is connections with a bunch of people who are obsessed with Church History and Pageantry (any Church will do). I'm going to post this link on the Ecclesiantics board at http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/ and see what they think.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 12:17:00 PM, Blogger zooza said…

    I have no idea what is going on, but the page on the far right is the spitting image of the little girl in Mary Poppins.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 12:19:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Determining a date for this ceremony would be helpful. My guess is that this photo was used in either the local newspaper (society or religion page) or a diocese newspaper, published perhaps once a month (my San Francisco diocese had such a publication).

    Any article about this event (in whatever publication) might even mention details about that lovely DRESS.

    CMC

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 12:26:00 PM, Anonymous Ivy said…

    I wonder if I could be something to do with Job's Daughters?

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 12:27:00 PM, Anonymous John said…

    Yes, there was a school, run by nuns.

    Definitely is the Cathedral, Immaculate Conception, Roman Catholic.

    Larger photo link on the site here will show detail.

    Don't know what color gown is, but you'll note it is lined in a lighter color; the pages have canes, which are be-ribboned with both fabrics.

    IF a second marriage, would there not be a ring on top of the glove? And what ABOUT those gloves, and if she is wearing a white (satin?) blouse, where do those ruched velvet sleeves come in?

    Did not know there was a museum, but I did write this morning to the diocesan archivist to ask if the reliquary is still in the Cathedral.

    A Queen of May or Immaculate Conception 'lady' would surely have been in white herself, and I cannot imagine she'd wear that jaunty beret or so much make-up? Likewise, this does not suggest a saint to me.

    Must rush to work, but will look into the Museum idea later!

    Thanks again!

    John

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 12:43:00 PM, Anonymous stephanie said…

    I have absolutely no idea what is happening in this picture. At all. I can't connect facts or speculations to it. At all. I am completely entranced. It is a MUCH stronger stimulant than my tea. I feel like making something now. Thank you so very much for...this... yes.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 12:47:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Another possibility is that it may be something having to do with the church's rosary society. This is my hunch because in many Catholic churches the rosary society was the ladies' social and philanthropic group, similar to the Knights of Columbus. If so, it could also explain the little girl pages, as there would not be little boys associated with the rosary society. It looks like the presentation of an artifact to me as well.

    Amy

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 12:58:00 PM, Blogger Pencils said…

    My guess would also be a ceremony donating a relic to the church, probably by a woman's organization. Would the Eastern Star donate to the Catholic Church? There definitely looks like some pageantry going on there. Or some other Catholic woman's organization. I'm not familiar with any, as I wasn't raised Catholic, but my mother belongs to the Episcopalian Church Women, an organization for Episcopalian women that is independent of the church, and they have their own money that they use for various charities, including their own parish.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 1:03:00 PM, Anonymous kim p. said…

    John--

    If you don't have much luck with the museum, you might want to contact the archivist at the Knights of Columbus headquarters in New Haven, CT. She might be able to help with the historical aspects, or with the particulars of feasts, pageants, etc. You can access her email address through their website, kofc.org.

    Good luck--and keep us posted!

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 1:12:00 PM, Blogger Pencils said…

    BTW, the little girls are holding canes with ribbons tied close to the handle.. The woman looks very young, too--she has plucked eyebrows, so she's not a schoolgirl, but I wouldn't put her much past 25. So either she's rich, or she was chosen for her looks, which considering the other pageantry, isn't unlikely.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 1:12:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    John, just repeating my request for a scan with greater detail of the reliquary & relic(?) than shown on the the large picture.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 1:15:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Those kids couldn't possibly be Morris dancers, could they? In their white outfits with beribboned canes?

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 2:15:00 PM, Anonymous Cricket said…

    This wouldn't have anything to do with Eastern Star or Jobs Daughters. Both are Masonic-affiliated and in the 1930s wouldn't likely have Catholic members or any association with a Catholic church.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 2:53:00 PM, Blogger Emily said…

    There are female run Catholic organizations. The one I'm most familiar with is the Council of Catholic Women, but I don't know how far back CCW goes historically.

    I was born after Vatican II, but the idea of a priest being vested for something other than a Mass is a bit odd. It's pretty common for a parish to honor their patron with a ceremony, and the priests don't usually wear vestments for those. If the patron saint of the parish is a female saint (the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary, so the cathedral would treat Mary as their patron saint), often girls and young women will be heavily involved in the celebration, and this tradition goes back centuries. I'll forward the image on to my father, who is a pre-Vatican II cradle Catholic to see if it's a reasonable looking image to him and if he has any other ideas.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 3:13:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Hi John,
    oooo this is a fun,exciting mystery. almost as good as an Agatha Christie.
    For what it is worth here is my 2 cents worth.
    The Young lady (I dont think she is much past 18) is dressed very much in the style worn by a young Carole Lombard in the very early 30s. She was filmed many times wearing a beret and this was a signature style with her. The YLs eyebrows are also tending toward but not at the extreme plucked arch that was very fashionable in the mid 20s.
    I agree that all the pages are girls although boys did wear the leather shoe with strap right through the 20s 30s and 40s especially in Britian.
    I think whoever made the page outfits was a huge Mary Pickford fan and copied an outfit she wore in one of her early films. After all Mary was the epitimy of style!!
    I am not familiar with the area that the photo was taken (I am in New Zealand) But research has shown that especially in the 20s and 30s The Movies (Hollywood) was the bigggest influence on fashion especially in the smaller provincial towns.
    Sadly now its MTV but thats a whole other topic.
    Good luck with your research.
    VickiJane

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 3:48:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The little girls might possibly be little boys. Boys were decked out in page-boy haircuts up to a certain age (starting school?) in the 1920s.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 4:52:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The children look like boys to me (unless there's some tendency for mid-western girls to have very broad, masculine jaws that I don't know about.) The pants issue is very valid, girls in church in pants is unthinkable before the 1970s. The shoes and hair cuts are perfectly suitable for boys of the 20s & 30s. Interesting as always how people assign gender based on their own cultural biases. They certainly are far too pretty to get away with being boys in our hyper-masculine era, aren't they?

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 4:56:00 PM, Anonymous cindy b said…

    Several of the children are wearing long johns under their stockings. Perhaps this was the end of a processional that began outdoors.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 5:23:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The Carole Lombard comparison is fitting as she was a Fort Wayne native (it doesn't look like her, but maybe she had a little sister or a cousin? an early body double?). Re. the Catholic Priest's vestment -- don't know about the States, but certainly in France and Italy in the 20s (and well into the latter part of 20th century) this would have been standard dress in and out of church. Re. page boys/ girls -- I have pics of my grandfather (born 1918) and his brothers, with long curls, dressed in white lace, and looking like little girls for much of their early years (and no, my great grandmother was neither weird nor did she harbour a yearning for girls; it was the fashion). The curls and lace would disappear as they reached school age to be replaced by pudding bowl cuts like some of the ones here. There are also pics of them wearing suits very similar to these (albeit dark and somewhat less fancy...).

    Fab velvet gown whatever the occasion!!

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 6:32:00 PM, Anonymous Melanie said…

    I have no Idea what is going on in this photo, but I do think that

    1. shoes and hair notwithstanding, I believe that these are boys. I am 35 and it was still a big deal when we had girls do anything at mass when I was a kid.

    2. rings are worn under gloves.

    3. that cape was wicked heavy and I am thinking black with green lining.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 6:46:00 PM, Blogger kim said…

    As I am from Ft Wayne it really intrigues me. But, I am clueless. I am wondering if it is some sort of Christmas pagent.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 7:04:00 PM, Blogger ThePeachMartini said…

    ...another local with nothing more to add than

    1) I was surprised to see mention of my stomping grounds (Ft Wayne)

    2) the Cathedral is a magnificent place - pass by it every morning on my way to work just a block away. It's so peaceful.

    3) Must. Have. Gown!!!

    THat is all...I will definitely be keeping an eye on this post, though!

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 7:12:00 PM, Anonymous marcia in austin said…

    This won't help solve the mystery or anything, but I think the ruching is at the top of the gloves, rather than the bottom of the sleeves.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 7:29:00 PM, Blogger Maricana said…

    One more random bit of info. . . Rosemary Neubauer, born about 1898 was listed in the 1920 U.S. Census living in Marion, IN (near Ft. Wayne). She was living with her mother, sister and Step-father (last name: Trenham).

    Those have to be little boys. Little girls were never allowed to do anything in the Church.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 8:07:00 PM, Anonymous John said…

    John again:

    I must tell you, that the pages are definitely girls-- in fact, I have their names also, from the back of the photo. This apparently has been the source of much speculation, which I did not forsee, as the closeup in the larger image shows their faces clearly.

    Here, from the diocesan-archivist, who wrote:

    The pages are listed from left to right; Mary Lee Koester, Betty Eifert, Mary Emmanuel, Pat Kilkelly, Dolores Sorg, Clare Kelker. The young lady in the middle is identified as Rosemary Nedilasen. (the spelling of last names is my best guess at reading the handwriting)

    I understand that it was UNUSUAL for these girls to be on the altar, and behind the communion rail, but then again, it was almost as odd to see that young lady there too!

    More later...

    John

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 8:14:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I think they are boys. How likely would it be to find that many little girls with that short of hair at that time (unless they are orphans) and wearing short pants. I also have seen pictures of my grandfather in a lace gown (as an infant) and then later with a pageboy and I think mary janes in another pic. It comes from our peasant societal roots/superstitions. Boys were dressed as girls so that spirits would think they were girls and not kill them (as boys would be able to help the family financially). It's somewhat linked to the reason we have wedding attendants...to confuse the spirits so they won't know whose special day it is and ruin it.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 8:14:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I think they are boys. How likely would it be to find that many little girls with that short of hair at that time (unless they are orphans) and wearing short pants. I also have seen pictures of my grandfather in a lace gown (as an infant) and then later with a pageboy and I think mary janes in another pic. It comes from our peasant societal roots/superstitions. Boys were dressed as girls so that spirits would think they were girls and not kill them (as boys would be able to help the family financially). It's somewhat linked to the reason we have wedding attendants...to confuse the spirits so they won't know whose special day it is and ruin it.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 8:17:00 PM, Anonymous cindy b said…

    I don't think they are at the main altar. I've been looking at pics of the Cathedral, and though renovations have taken place, nothing "fits" right. I think this may be a sanctuary on the side of the main altar. Considering that this is a Cathedral, the main altar would be MUCH bigger, and the bishops seat on the side(at the top of the stairs).

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 8:28:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    That double post (speculating they are boys) was not in response to John. I think I wrote it at the same time.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 8:51:00 PM, Anonymous Shelley Flaherty said…

    Okay,

    Grow up Catholic in the 1960's and truly women were rare participants in church ceremonies EXCEPT for one. The May celebration honoring Mary. At our church, one young women was chosen to wear a gown/cape very similar to this one and she was attended by 'female alter girls' (no swords though). The gown worn in our case was red velvet with either a emerald green or violet silky lining. And with regard to the long johns mentioned in an earlier post: The May procession started outside and finished at the altar and finished with a Mass.
    The ceremony - Lots of flowers and music, songs dedicated to Mary - all very beautiful.

    Maybe this is a similar ceremony at this church, particularly since it is a Catholic Church dedicated to Mary.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 8:53:00 PM, Anonymous shlowzi said…

    The costumes on the girls remind me of Easter pageants I've seen in European churches. Keep in mind that the young lady's dress is not necessarily black. It seems more likely to me a someone that age would wear a deep green or blue to a church event, with the lighter tone underneath. I haven't been to church in years, but I'm pretty sure my great aunts who grew up in the thirties (and in pictures from before their teenage years always had bowl haircuts and mary jane shoes) would never wear that much black to church unless it was a funeral.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 10:11:00 PM, Anonymous RickB said…

    Reducing the speculations.

    1) The priests name is known: Msgr. Thomas M. Conroy.
    2) The young woman's name is known (within the limits of reading handwriting)
    3) the pages are girls and their names are known.
    4) The church is known.
    5) The alter is known to be the main alter at the Cathedral in Fort Wayne Indiana prior to its replacement in 1933. Since Msgr Conroy began in Ft Wayne in 1921, the date of the photo HAS to be in that 12 year span.

    That said, it's impossible to enhance the photo enough to identify the reliquary. My best effort is at http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh20/rboatright/reliquary.jpg

    I have managed to convince myself that the shield on the top of the reliquary is a shepard, facing slightly to our left and holding a crook, and that the "pages" are, in fact, shepards holding crooks not canes. This explains the "odd" handles on the "canes."

    The FRONT of the reliquary has two shields on it. The one on our right has three "lumps" on it which to me seem to be faces, but really they're lumps. The shield on our left is hopeless. Both shields are surrounded by 8 pointed stars, I've tried to find haraldry which cooresponds, but have failed utterly.

    The lid of the box is cracked open, and the chain is coming OUT of the lid, and the pendant is hanging from the chain.

    There is what appears to be an opening on the left of the pendant, but it could just as easily be a dark decoration.

    So, I'm afraid unless the cathedral archivist can help with identifying the reliquary, I'm stumped.

    Those ruffled gloves are amazing tho.

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 10:18:00 PM, Blogger Kate said…

    I don't have anything to add other than I am truly enjoying all the speculation and I can't wait to find out more!

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 10:52:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I doubt that this photo was taken during any ceremony (whatever ceremony that might have been) and most certainly this photo was not taken during Mass (the Msgr is not wearing vestments for Mass, and probably would not have allowed photography during Mass). I’m sure this is a posed commemorative photo for some type of celebration or procession. My best guess is some type of saint day celebration or feast day celebration, probably involving or related to the Virgin Mary or another female saint (thus the young woman and girl pages) - a celebration for which the reliquary or religious object in the young woman’s hands has a specific significance. I am convinced that being chosen to carry the box or to be one of the pages was quite an honor. A ceremony or procession sponsored by a particular devotional organization is also a good possibility.

    For a Queen of the May celebration, I would expect vast quantities of flowers, but not necessarily a relic. Don’t see any flowers.

    If this is a relic, I expect that the pendant contains a bit of cloth or wood or some very small object associated (most likely) with a female saint.

    Further net searching indicates, much to my surprise, that Indiana seems to have quite a number of Catholic reliquary collections. The Basilica of the Sacred Heart (University of Notre Dame in South Bend, IN about 120 miles away from Fort Wayne) includes a Reliquary Chapel. “Found here are the relics of each of the 12 Apostles; a piece of the manger at Bethlehem; pieces of the veil and belt of the Blessed Virgin; and relics of all of the saints in the Church calendar. The large wood cross contains a relic of the True Cross.” Now THAT is quite an impressive collection of relics. More about the relics at Notre Dame:

    http://www.nd.edu/~ndmag/sp2004/relics.html

    Perhaps a relic traveled from Notre Dame for this specific ceremony in Fort Wayne?

    CMC

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 10:59:00 PM, Anonymous John said…

    The top of the box seems clear enough to me as a fleur de lis... not sure how it could appear to be a shepherd. This peculiar version of a fleur de lis is identical to that used on the arms of Florence,Italy.

    The shield on the left, looking at the box, has a thing on top, which indicates a first son (forget the name of the symbol.)

    The shield on the right, which looks like three of something, actually has three PAIRS of what appear to be crescents facing each other. There is heraldic symbolism to FOUR crescents, but not six.

    There IS a closeup photo of the reliquary available! It is from the diocesan archivist. Problem is, the close-up is NOT from the large photo, it is its own photo. And while the gloves look the same, the BOX looks different-- no as much engraving! I'll see if I can get it added to the site!

    On the gloves-- they appear to be kid gloves to me, and I am not an expert; so the ruffled 'sleeves' may not be attached.

    What's up with the scarf-effect?

    I don't think there is anyting worn under the 'stockings', rather they look (to me) rumpled, perhaps from kneeling during the ceremony.

    Rosemary from the 1920 Census was 22 at the time the census was taken; if we agree her dress was from about 1930 or a bit later, she would have been 32 or so. I don't think the lady is quite that age.

    It is said to be definitely the main altar, before it was re-done in 1934. It is too large and has too many steps for a side altar, and there IS a communion rail, which is not visible-- so imagine the size of the (santuary?)

    I had thought it might be a rich lady, symbolically presenting the Monsignor with a gift, in fact the money which was used at that time to redo the main (and the two side) altar(s).

    Does it appear she is about to turn to the priest?

    The altars were redone with money donated by Odelia Phillips Breen, in memory of her brother Frank Phillips. I had hoped she was the lady, but Odelia would have been in her 60's or 70's at the time of the photo! And the identity as Rosemary had been established.

    There is an exception, is there not, to the (proper) wearing of rings OVER gloves? And that being a wedding ring.

    There are some excellent suggestions above (Thank you!)for further research, and I'll make notes of them and follow up.

    Oh, I may have tracked down one of the pages, and have written to her (or her son) and enclosed a copy of the photo. Hoping for a reply!

     

  • At Jan 8, 2008 11:06:00 PM, Anonymous John said…

    If anyone is interested, there are words inscribed on the marble walls on each side of the altar. The Latin "hic est panis" and a few other words are possible to read. This is the verse from John 6, which reads: Hic est panis de caelo descendens..., Here is Bread, Which came down from Heaven-- an appropriate verse for the altar.

    Oh, and Mary Lee Koester, one of the pages, while NOT the one I wrote to, is the only one whose married name I know: Mary Lee Sosenheimer. She was in the Class of 1942, Central Catholic High School, Fort Wayne, Indiana. Still trying to find her.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 12:25:00 AM, Blogger Rebecca said…

    this is so incredibly interesting! what fun
    i know some of the speculations are getting rather 'nit-picky' so i might as well add my own:
    to me, it is quite clear that the 3rd page on the left and the middle page on the right are in some sort of thermals under their tights. the marking in the tights is very obvious. yes, there is also rumpling... but this is layering. the other thing i agree with that has been said is that the young woman is wearing a satin shirt and long dark skirt with a magnificent cape and gloves. you can see her rounded collar of the white shirt (even her camisole strap is visible). i also believe that the rouched sleeve is the top of the gloves folded over the tighter portion.
    can't wait to find out more :D

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 12:38:00 AM, Blogger Alicia said…

    Quote: Oh, and Mary Lee Koester, one of the pages, while NOT the one I wrote to, is the only one whose married name I know: Mary Lee Sosenheimer. She was in the Class of 1942, Central Catholic High School, Fort Wayne, Indiana. Still trying to find her.
    -----

    So if Mary Lee graduated at age 18 then she was born in '24. The pages look like they're between the ages of 6 and 8 (I think - those of you with more familiarity with kids might think differently) which would put this (roughly) between 1929 and 1934. Which pretty much confirms Erin's original guestidate. I can't wait to hear the story behind this picture and hope John's search for the pagegirls is successful.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 12:41:00 AM, Blogger Alicia said…

    A second quick thought - if the girls did indeed dress like this for May Day then it's very possible that the costumes were reused for this occasion. It would explain the May Day garb sans the flowers. And I want that cape!

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 1:06:00 AM, Blogger Val said…

    As a vintage hair nut, the 3rd page from the right is totally rocking those rounded Bettie Page/Anna May Wong bangs. I wish I could.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 1:57:00 AM, Anonymous zimmersarmy said…

    John,
    Thomas M. Conroy is refered to as a monsignor? He came to serve as a Father in 1921.

    I found numerous newspaper articles for FATHER Conroy but no Monsignor. He seem to be quite active in involving the youth in the church and in "pagents" of sorts.

    Any way to pin down when he was "promoted?"

    Also could the school connected with the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception be St. Augustine's Academy?

    Interesting.

    -Janet

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 4:06:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Could it be linked to a secret Catholic society? I have heard of such things here (persent day - people commissioned to make elaborate robes for women).

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 4:15:00 AM, Blogger Pencils said…

    My dad, who was an altar boy in the 1940s in NYC, said that there were many "solidarities" or societies in his church. He said they were called "St. (name your saint)Solidarity blah blah." If it were the feast day of a female saint, this may well be a photograph commemmorating a procession into the church, carrying a reliquary associated with the saint. So, since there can't be that many relics in the cathedral--if they still have that reliquary, especially--see what societies were involved with the cathedral at that time. Aren't there any cathedral records?

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 6:56:00 AM, Blogger Pencils said…

    And since this is about the robes, a funny story: my dad was kicked out of the altar boys because he and his friends "borrowed" their robes or vestments to play Three Musketeers. The thought makes me smile--my dad was from a rough neighborhood on the West Side (think West Side Story, which was filmed in his neighborhood, at one point the Jets dance down the alley next to his building.) They were also suspected of stealing the Communion wine, but that was never proved. ;)

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 7:23:00 AM, Anonymous cindy b said…

    I would say the girls are between 8 and 10. They all have their permanent teeth in front.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 7:52:00 AM, Anonymous Lady Miss Alicia said…

    Pencils: The word you want is "Sodality" and almost every Catholic church has a Sodality of Mary.

    The length of the cape would seem to make it much more ceremonial than functional (plus the page "boys" to hold the train. My bet would be that it is some kind of Sodality presentation and, considering the velvet, probably for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception (December 8) in the winter. Immaculate Conception would also be an important feastday for the Sodality of Mary. I'll bet a nickel that there's some relic of the Virgin Mary in that pendant.

    I'd guess that the cape is a permanent part of the ceremonial wardrobe and that the girl chosen each year for the presentation wore the same cloak.

    May ceremonies usually take place in the spring which might rule out velvet, especially dark velvet. Also they usually involve a crown, either temporary (fresh flowers) or permanent (bejeweled) rather than a casket/reliquary and pendant.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 9:21:00 AM, Blogger Pencils said…

    The word you want is "Sodality" and almost every Catholic church has a Sodality of Mary.

    Thank you, Lady Miss Alicia! My dad probably did actually say "sodality," --he told my mom, who emailed it to me.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 9:29:00 AM, Anonymous John said…

    May Queen (or, Queen of the May) involves a long white gown, a crown, and definitely a great many flowers. I can find many photos of such online, but none with velvet or dark colors. [One possible exception appeared to be velvet cape edged with ermine.]

    Have written to the museum asking about the reliquary.

    Father Conroy was elevated to the rank of Monsignor in October 1932. He is often referred to as Monsignor, even when the discussion is about earlier history. {as in, the monsignor was transferred to the Cathedral in 1921-- he was a priest at the time, not yet a msgr.)

    One interesting note from his obituary in 1946:

    Msgr. Conroy [ordered]"ecclesiastical vestments of great beauty, among the most elaborate in the country."

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 9:35:00 AM, Blogger A Soldier's Girl said…

    Eastern Orthodox churches have both priests and altars. I believe Episcopalians ALSO have priests and altars (though I'm not certain). That is why I asked.

    As an Orthodox Christian, I can tell you, even if the name of the cathedral was NOT known, this isn't an Orthodox church. There is no iconostasis (icon screen) in front of the altar.

    All these wonderful guesses though! How fun!

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 9:41:00 AM, Anonymous John said…

    Back to heraldry for a moment:

    The shield on the left of the box, as we look at it, has a "LABEL" at the top, indicating first-born.

    The slanted bar across that shield is a BEND, or BENDY, meaning defense or protection.

    The right shield: crescent-shapes can refer to Mary, or honoured by the Sovereign, or hope of greater glory. A lunel would be 4 crescent moons, with all points facing in, towards each other.

    The fleur de lis can also be a symbol of purity-chastity and refer to Mary, but is often a symbol of St. Joseph. And as I said above, that particular rendering of the fleur de lis is usually the coat of arms of Florence, Italy. And for completeness, the flower can also indicate a sixth son.

    I'm not sure the crescents are indeed crescents, as they are not well-defined.

    Msgr. Thomas M. Conroy died 9 OCtober 1946. We cannot date the photo by that, as the altar was known to have changed in 1934. The earliest possible date for the photo would be 1921, as that is when Msgr. Conroy (still Fr. Conroy) came to the Cathedral as Rector.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 9:43:00 AM, Blogger cottrell_ron said…

    This post has been removed by the author.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 9:54:00 AM, Blogger A Soldier's Girl said…

    cottrell_ron:

    If that was in response to me, I *know* the church has been positively identified. I simply mentioned that, even were the church name *NOT* known, it could not be an Orthodox church.

    I was responding to "univega amy," who mentioned Orthodox churches, as well as Episcopalian. Orthodox and Catholic get confused and conflated often enough that I dislike seeing misinformation left out for the world to read.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 10:23:00 AM, Blogger the_sewist said…

    Lady Miss Alicia said:
    I'll bet a nickel that there's some relic of the Virgin Mary in that pendant.
    *******


    There's NO WAY that could be a relic of the Virgin Mary... Catholics believe that Mary was assumed bodily into heaven. Her remains are nowhere to be found on this Planet.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 10:36:00 AM, Anonymous John said…

    Relics come in degrees; while the Virgin Mary was assumed into heaven, there could be second degree relics, such as a piece of her veil, as mentioned above. Or even third degree relics, something (generally a small piece of cloth) which touched something, that touched the Saint.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 10:45:00 AM, Anonymous John said…

    A note for those interested in the Census: Thomas Conroy is found on the 1880 Census in Ft. Wayne, Indiana, at age 3. That age corresponds to his birthdate of 6 March 1877, given in his obituary. The names of his parents are consistant, James (a blacksmith) and Mary (Fitzgerald) Conroy. The obituary names three sisters and three brothers. The Census names one sister, "Ella", later called "Nelly", and one brother James. James is not named in the obituary, and probably pre-deceased Thomas.

    Siblings:

    Mrs. Nelly Holopeter
    Mrs. Mary Zurbuch
    Mrs. Loretta Hisk
    William J.
    Emmett J.
    Harold J.

    [J for James?]

    And several nieces and nephews, unnamed.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 11:12:00 AM, Anonymous zimmersarmy said…

    There seems to have been a Young Ladies Sodality and a Girl's Sodality at each of the four Fort Wayne Catholic churches.

    Father Conroy was the spiritual leader for the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception Sodalities.

    There seem to be special meetings held at the beginning of each school year. And annual elections happened in November or December.

    Perhaps the lovely lady in the velvet cape is a newly elected (title)?

    A few more guesses on my part

    -Janet

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 12:00:00 PM, Anonymous John said…

    I think that is probably what's happening here, Janet. Hopefully I'll hear back from a few people I've contacted with more information.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 12:04:00 PM, Blogger goddessofallthereis said…

    This is such fun! I grew up in a Catholic community in Louisiana, and have older sisters who participated in church events similar to many written about here. Very interesting progression of information!
    Has the photograph been published in a local (to Ft.Wayne) newspaper recently, to see what information you might get from area readers? Occasionally, social-columnists will do that sort of thing for no charge, especially in smaller newspapers. Perhaps you should check that out?
    I love this sleuthing everyone is doing. Erin, perhaps you should do a blog just for this sort of thing. :)

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 12:59:00 PM, Blogger Kai Jones said…

    Some of my guesses:

    The ruched velvet sleeves are attached to the cloak lining--and are the same fabric. As are the scarves wrapped around her neck, which likely extend from the cloak and are used to hide the closure at the neck.

    She's wearing a peter pan collared satin blouse, probably her own (it fits well).

    At least two of the pages are wearing long underwear under their socks (you can see the seams and edges on their shins, separate from the wrinkles).

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 1:54:00 PM, Blogger Theresa said…

    My Catholic Boss says it is definetely a Knights of Colombus ceremony.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 2:08:00 PM, Anonymous John said…

    I've looked up photos of the Ladies Auxilary of the Knights of Columbus, and find only military-looking attire, nothing so theatrical.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 3:19:00 PM, Anonymous John said…

    There is now an Update on the main page, with a link to a very large image of the reliquary. Thank you, Erin.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 4:57:00 PM, Blogger Terry Ellen said…

    Looking at the large image of "just" the reliquary - it doesn't look like the same box to me. Too smooth between design elements on the front. Although the blouse of the person holding the box seems to have a peter pan collar, and the neck looks like there's a scarf around it. Gloves obviously are different. This is a wonderful mystery and outstanding exercise in observation, research and deduction. Agreed: canes, not swords. Definitely long underwear on some of the girls, helping to put the photo during cold weather at least. Keep up the good work, fellow fans!

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 5:19:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Don't know what they're doing, but the swords are really canes and the girls are all wearing tap shoes. I'm suspecting a recital.

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 5:29:00 PM, Anonymous John said…

    I agree, it does not appear to be the same box. There is definitely more detail in the box the lady is holding, with the pages around her.

    As Ren says to Stimpy: "what does it MEAN?"

     

  • At Jan 9, 2008 5:31:00 PM, Blogger Kitty said…

    Maybe the 2 different reliquaries/gloves in the full picture vs. close up are from 2 different years. Someone suggested that this might be an inducton ceremony for a new officer for a sodality for young women (can't find the specific post - sorry), which would explain the differences in the pictures.